#bethyl in sdcc trailer

[my-mt-heart]

Apparently Daryl and Carol in season 3 wind up accidentally sailing to Spain instead of America via London. I just feel like we could have had two seasons of Carol finding Daryl and the two of them discovering love was there between them all along as they journey home, then it would provide an epic conclusion to their story arc. Instead we have nun ship baiting, rumors of Beth being rammed in as a lost love memento mori with the nun echoing her as a copycat Beth (Emily Kinney is reputedly recording Walking Dead songs why I don't know but it is heavily causing me to side eye with scorn because Beth was a teen and we have Carol a beautiful mature woman who is his equal) , Daryl negative to Carol and now Zabel shitting where he lives. People want Caryl, AMC has been baiting us with hashtag Caryl and artistically it makes absolute sense. Instead we have middle aged white men EPs who can't accept love interests don't have to be attractive blondes of childbearing age.

I saw the post about them "accidentally" ending up in Spain and granted if the o.g. source was an extra, then they aren't a reliable narrator, but at the same time, I don't underestimate Zabel's carelessness, so let's discuss briefly (S3 is the furthest thing from my mind right now tbh). What's frustrating is that there's a perfectly logical reason for Caryl to sail south first instead of west to get home, but because he doesn't bother doing any research, Zabel chooses something convoluted and hokey that also makes Caryl look incompetent. Which, as we know, they most definitely are not.

To me, Bethyl conspiracy theories are just that, so idk if there's really anything to talk about there, but as far as AMC should be concerned, even just suggesting the idea of Daryl having romantic feelings for a teenager or a nun is not a line they want to cross. Case in point, fans calling them out on multiple platforms right now for Zabel's comments.

Daryl and Carol don't need to discover they're in love. They are in love and the EPs insisting that they can't be is a reflection of some really deep ageism like you said. A relationship with a nun Daryl barely knows makes perfect sense to them, but a gray-haired woman he's shared a deep connection with for 14 years? Well, that would make their non-existent dudebro viewers run for the hills, and they certainly can't have that. I want to talk more about the ageism and misogyny in a separate post though. The other reason for such a definitive stance is their resentment over Carol disrupting the story they were trying to tell in S1. Contrary to what they say, they did not "always" plan for her to be involved. I know some people don't want to trust me, so then trust your eyes. Go back and watch how Carol is positioned in the trailer. Pay attention to how Zabel and Nicotero talk during the SDCC panel and in their interviews. Again, some of the things they say are nonsense, but they also give themselves away quite a bit. I'm not comfortable with either of them making any decisions for Caryl's story.

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Codas for SDCC Trailers: Undeniable Patterns

Today, I want to talk about the coda. In the S9 SDCC trailer we just got, it’s Rosita and Eugene hiding from the Whisperers. Naturally, this spurred all kinds of thoughts in my head. So here they are! 

Since S4, all of the official, SDCC trailers have had a coda. I’m referring to is after the trailer says, “The Walking Dead” and the date the season premiere will air, there’s another few seconds of scenes. We refer to that as the coda because it's what comes after the end. (Of course we didn't start calling it that until after 5x08 aired, but whatever. ;D)

In the S4 trailer, the coda had to do with Terminus. It was Daryl, Michonne, Tyreese, and Bob in the car when they heard Terminus broadcasting. 

In the S5 Trailer, and most significant to TD, the coda was Beth at Grady, being beaten by Dawn (5x04). 

The S6 was Daryl out in the woods when he met Dwight (it came from 6x06). 

The S7 coda was Tara, discovering Oceanside (7x07). 

The S8 coda was what I always referred to as Rick’s Old man Coda. We saw it in both 8x01 and again 8x08 when we found out it was actually Carl’s vision. This one is slightly different. But don’t worry, it will still follow the same pattern.

Now, in the S9 trailer, Eugene and Rosita are hiding from the Whisperers.

We always want to relate the coda of the trailer to Beth, somehow. And, while most of the situations in the trailer codas do have something to do with her, or at least are very heavy on Beth symbolism, because she hasn't actually returned yet, we can't relate them to her for sure (with the exception of S5, of course, because she WAS the coda). But something is occurred to me that's kind of interesting.

In every single one of these cases, the episode the coda is pulled from ends up introducing a new group or community. (S4 = Terminus, S5 = Grady, S6 = Dwight/Saviors, S7 = Oceanside, S8 = Carl’s vision of what the new world/new communities would look like. So slightly different, but still in the same vein.)

Also, in the episode the scenes from the coda trailers come from, it’s really more of an introduction to the new group/community, and they aren’t dealt with in a big way until later. Most times, they show up again in the season finale, and are carried over into the next season. But sometimes they aren’t dealt with at all until the next season.

So, in 4x03, they heard Terminus broadcasting, but we didn’t actually get to Terminus until 4x16 (finale) and then it carried over into S5. 

In S5, 5x04 was intro to Grady, and they dealt with it again fairly quickly after (the MSF) but I’m gonna submit that Grady was a little different (I’ll come back to why in a minute). 

In 6x06, we were introduced to the Saviors, saw them again briefly in 6x09, but didn’t meet them in a big way until Negan showed up in 6x16 (finale). 

Then of course it carried over for two seasons, in s7 and S8. 

In 7x06 we were introduced to Oceanside, and didn’t see it for the rest of the season. TF at large didn’t arrive at Oceanside until S7, and then it, also, carried over to S8. 

Finally, with S8, we saw it in 8x01, but didn’t really understand what we were seeing (introduction), saw it again in the MSF, but didn’t actually see the end of it until 8x16 when Rick sat under the tree with the plate glass windows. And because Negan is still alive, and the communities didn’t actually do all the rebuilding from Carl’s vision in S8, it will carry over into S9 as well.

Also notice that each time they encounter the new group in the coda, they lose another character in a big way. Not in the scenes of the coda trailer when the new group is introduced, but when TF actually encounters them.

So, Daryl didn’t lose Beth when TF got to Terminus in 4x16, but he’d lost her RIGHT before that. 

In S5, when they got to Grady, they lost Beth again, in a much bigger way. 

In S6, when Negan showed up, Glenn and Abraham died.

 In S7, when Tara discovered Oceanside, Heath disappeared. (So the loss can be death or disappearance, per Beth in S4 and Heath in S7).

In s8, obviously it was Carl.

(Quick aside: actually, the case of the Saviors is really protracted and complicated. Because they’re such long-running enemies—introduced in S6, not “beaten” until S8 and still kinda going in S9—the pattern is repeated in many places for them. You could argue we had two, if not three introductions to the Saviors. When Daryl meets Dwight in 6x06, Tina is lost. Not a huge character, but still, she dies. And of course she was a Beth proxy. They met a group of Saviors in 6x09, and it was the Saviors themselves that Daryl took out with the rocket launcher. The next “intro” to the Saviors was when Dwight showed up and killed Denise. A much bigger character and loss, especially where Daryl was concerned. But it still fits the pattern because when TF at large met the Saviors in a big way in 6x16, we had two of the biggest deaths of the series, Glenn and Abraham. Just wanted to point out the details here.)

And these aren’t the only deaths, either. Bob died as a result of the Termites. Tina and Denise as a result of the Saviors. Later, also Sasha. So I’m sure we could find more intricate patterns in this.

So what’s my point in telling you all this? A couple of things.

1.Beth (naturally ;D)

I said Grady was a little different. The ways in which it’s different are things TD has been pointing out for years, but let’s reiterate them here for the sake of the pattern.

With each of the new communities that are introduced in trailer coda scenes, we usually get a very in-depth look at them before TF moves on from them. We see either their inner workings, or their history, or both. So with Terminus, we had the “Then/Now” flashbacks in 5x01. With the Saviors, well, we had a very in-depth, two-season look at their organization. Many characters (Daryl, Carl, Eugene, Sasha) ended up on the inside so we could see exactly what the organization was and how it was run. With Oceanside, Tara was on the inside, which helped us see it up close. We had a pretty good idea of what it was and what was happening there. And we got at least an oral history of what happened to these women and how they ended up where they did.

But Grady was different. We got a little bit of oral history through Dr. Edwards and Dawn, but not tons. And Grady was never as transparent as these other communities. They never showed us EXACTLY what was going on there. Were they working on a cure? How, exactly, did the ward system work? 

We can work a lot of it out by deduction, but they gave us all these tantalizing clues and weird dialogue that they never explained. So again, Grady was different

2. The other big thing is that each of these communities was taken down by TF in some way. Terminus was burnt out and knocked on it’s butt. When the Termites followed TF, they were killed. With the Saviors, after an actual war, Negan was taken down, and the Saviors are no longer a “power” in the area. Just another part of the community. So the Sanctuary, as it existed before, is no longer running. Even Oceanside, though it wasn’t burned or anything, was still “taken down” by TF. They overpowered everyone there in S7 and took all their guns. Then in S8, they joined the war.

But once again, Grady is different. TF may have taken down Dawn, but they didn’t destroy the community, as they did Terminus, nor integrate it’s residents into their group, as they did with the Saviors and Oceanside. So Grady doesn’t really fit the pattern. At least, not yet.

So I’m gonna submit (and I don’t think this will be much of a stretch for anyone on TD) that everything we saw of Grady in 5a was simply part of the introduction. It’s obvious to me that we haven’t seen the second part of this pattern, where TF “deals” with the community in a more final way, either by taking it down violently or by integrating the people from it into their own community. 

Most of us think both will happen with Grady. With some variations, most of us think Beth will take down Grady or at least be present at it’s take-down (TF may not be there, but then again there is a theory that in the flash where she’s running in her yellow polo, the arm we see next to her might be Daryl’s, so…). 

And if she shows up leading people from Grady (Dr. Edwards, the remaining cops, etc) then they will be integrated into Rick’s community as well. Just saying.

And think about it: TF encountering the community in a big way and losing someone, as they did with Grady in 5x08, DOES fit the pattern, 

but it lines up in the other instances with 4x16, 6x16, 7x06 and 8x08. In each other instance, TF deals with the community again after that, sometimes for several seasons, and it ends in a much more final way. So I think it’s safe to say that we haven’t seen the end of Grady yet (which we all thought anyway) and that this is why we saw it in the coda of the S5 trailer.

3. Another observation: the next, most obvious questions the skeptics will ask is why it’s taking so long to get the second half. I’m sure they’ll argue that none of the stories around other communities in the trailer codas took this long to finish. They would be correct about that. So, doesn’t that argue against this theory? Why would they take so long to finish THIS story (Beth’s/Grady’s) as opposed to the others?

My answer could be super-long-winded and go into Beth being the new sheriff and needing to disappear for a while (I have more thoughts on that coming up that have to deal with the board games featured in the Governor’s S4 episodes. Yes, you read that right. Yes, it’s also very random. Go back and watch those episodes to see if you can figure it out. I’ll be posting about it either later this week or early next week) but I won’t go into all that.

What I will say is this: none of the other stories, except Beth’s/Grady’s, have an actual episode called Coda to send them off with.

TF thought they were finished with the Termites in 5x01, but they weren’t. There was a coda to the story where the Termites showed up again a few episodes later, and had to be dealt with in a more final way. 

Daryl might have thought the Saviors were good and dealt with after blowing them up in 6x09, but not. Lots more story and big interactions with the Saviors after that. 

Tara totally planned on being done with Oceanside after 7x06. She promised she’d keep their location a secret, and fully meant to keep that promise. But things changed. So there was more story to come. A coda. But in none of these situations was there an episode called Coda when TF encountered the community and lost someone.

As I said, we had the intro to Grady through Beth in 5x04. Them going to Grady and losing her was the next part of the pattern, but the sequence didn’t finish. Instead, they called the episode Coda. Now, TD has analyzed the crap out of that title ever since the episode aired, but for purposes of this post, I think the title serves two purposes. 

1) They had to tell us there would be a coda because, unlike the rest of these stories, the rest of the pattern wouldn’t play out in the next handful of episodes. Or even the next handful of seasons for that matter. So TD has always interpreted that title correctly. We always knew there would be more to come. 

2) I think the fact that all the stories had codas, but Beth’s included an episode called Coda shows that her arc is the big cheese. The grand-daddy of codas will be with this story line. It will take many seasons to come to pass, but that’s the whole point. This story is all about coming back, second chances, resurrections, etc. People thought Merle was dead in S1. Nope. Coda in S3. They thought Morales was long gone. Nope. Tiny coda in S8. Many people still think Heath won’t be back. No freakin’ way, people. This show doesn’t leave loose ends like that. See what I mean? This is a huge theme of the show, and Beth’s/Grady’s arc will be the biggest embodiment of it.

 And once again, I’m hugely encouraged by the fact that Angela Kang worked so heavily on Beth’s story line, wrote Coda, named the episode Coda, and now, when everything else points to Beth’s return, Kang has become the show runner. 

Okay, this has all been about Beth, but just a couple of thoughts about the actual coda for S9 (Rosita and Eugene hiding from the Whisperers).

1) Following the pattern, chances are this will be an introduction to the Whisperers (or whatever they’re called in the show ;D). No way to know what episode this will take place in, but given that the trailer generally covers mostly the first few episodes of the season, chances are it will be early on in S9. Definitely part of 9a. If it follows the pattern closely, chances are Rosita and Eugene will encounter them in this scene, but escape. Then TF won’t encounter them in a big way until 9x16 (the finale) and it will carry over into S10.

Why does that matter? For one, I just want to see if I’m right and how closely it adheres to the pattern. But this is also why I’m not sure I trust reports of the second time jump (5-6 years). I’m truly not totally against it where Beth is concerned. At this point, if they’re gonna bring her back, it won’t matter how much time passes. They’ll still do it. Maybe it won’t be in the way we originally wanted, and maybe it will take more time than we want, but both those things are already true.

My issue is that I just don’t see them introducing the Whisperers through Rosita and Eugene in 9a, and then waiting five years for TF to deal with them. That just doesn’t seem logical to me. And I could be wrong, of course, but I just don’t really trust that report. Even the spoiler site who has “confirmed” it already said regarding Rick’s death that they think they’re receiving purposely misleading reports, so we’ll just have to wait and see.

2. If S9 is not really about the Whisperers (just an intro to them) then what the hell will it be about?

Obviously somewhat about fighting between the communities and trying to establish everything. And of course there are the reports of Rick’s death, and possibly Maggie’s (which suspiciously everyone was completely silent about at Comic Con). But even that doesn’t seem like enough to fill an entire season. So…maybe the return of a certain blond and the rest of the pattern for Grady? Just saying. ;D

I've said this before, but if S9 follows the template from S4, and the trailer is convincing me more and more that it will, then there's going to be some other thing that's occupying team family. In 4a, it was the virus. Maybe here it will be these conflicts between the communities, and the possible uprising of a small faction against Rick. But I think, like the virus, that will be pretty small potatoes, and may be completely solved by 9×08.

In fact, if they follow the pattern the template of the governor's storyline, it might be a matter of that conflict being over by episode 5. Hopefully by then Beth will appear, and the next two episodes, just like the governor in S4, will be her back story. All that will take up 9A. And of course Rick will be departing at some point. I still kind of think that he won’t actually go until the MSF.

Keep in mind that 4b was all about the characters dealing with the emotion of what happened in 4a: the tragedy of the prison falling and Hershel’s death. And 4b was where Bethyl became a thing in Still. So here’s hoping 9b will follow that same pattern.

Final observation (I promise!):

Look at this picture of Eugene and Rosita. 

Does it strike you as something we’ve seen before? This is going to be another example of Bethyl’s Side by Side arc, guys. Remember this edit?

That would be significant to me either way, and I won’t attempt to over-analyze it until we actually see this episode, but I thought about it after watching the trailer, and two things jump out at me as very significant.

1) I really haven’t thought about this theme other than in passing for the past two seasons. Anyone want to guess why? Because we really haven’t SEEN it in the past two seasons. Unless there’s an instance I missed (let me know if you can think of one, but with the emphasis on the action of the war, I really don’t think there’s been one) the last time we saw this theme was in S6. And that was huge because we saw it twice in 6x06, Always Accountable. First, with Daryl and the walker lying next to his bike, who so obviously represented Beth. 

Then again in the burnt out GREENhouse, just before Tina (Beth proxy) died right in front of Daryl.

So we had this theme represented in season 4, 5, and 6. Then it disappeared for two seasons. Now, with all the other stuff I’ve said above, and all the hope and evidence we have for S9, and Angela Kang being show runner, suddenly this theme is reappearing. Hmm. That makes me super excited!

2) It’s reappearing in conjunction with the Whisperers. We haven’t heard the word, “Whisperers” used on the show yet, but we have heard the Wolves. I guess we’ll be finding out if this theory is correct pretty soon in S9, but I still think the Wolves and the Whisperers may be one and the same in the show.

To explain why this is significant, let’s revisit the instance of the Side by Side theme in S5. It always seemed really random to me. In 5x13, Forget, when Rick, Daryl and Carol meet secretly to talk about stealing guns from Alexandria’s arsenal, it shows this:

It’s a male and female. The female, significantly, has been shot in the forehead. When I first saw this, I wracked my brain trying to figure out the significance of showing during this episode and scene. Did it have to do with the guns? Alexandria? What? Beth obviously didn’t return in 5b. It took me a while to figure it out, but I think it has to do with the wolves. 

These two dead walkers don’t have Ws on their foreheads that I can see, but it’s right after this that Daryl notices the W on the forehead of the walker Carol kills. 

So it’s kind of a mini introduction to the Wolves, through the marks they leave on the forehead. (Then, later in the season, 5x15, we see the blond walker on the tree who looks like Beth, who’s face Daryl looks into as if to make sure it’s not her, and she has a W on her forehead.)

But if we look at the sequence in 5x13, we have Daryl waiting for a walker to reach them, and we see the side-by-side theme, and then a representation of the Wolves. Now, in S9, we have a representation of the side-by-side theme (Rosita and Eugene) and the “Ws” are returning. See how this was a foreshadow?

By extension, this side-by-side theme started with Beth and Daryl in S4 (4x10, Inmates) which is why we’ve always linked it to them. So it could be an indication that Beth will return with the Wolves/Whisperers as well. Just saying.

Aside: Sorry but I gotta add one more thing. While getting the pic on the previous slide, I rewatched this scene where Daryl, Rick and Carol talk. Everything in it is a foreshadow. Not of Beth, but of what happens with the wolves in 6x02.

At first, they can’t see the walker but can hear it growling. Daryl says, “I can’t see it, but it’s close.” That was also true of the wolves at this point in the story, but TF didn’t know it. He also says, “it’s just one of them.” Obviously there was more than one wolf in 6x02, but I think that’s code for it being a small amount, not all of the wolves that attacked. (Hence, we will see them again.)

When the walker shows up, Daryl says, “I got it,” but Carol tells him to wait and shoots it herself. Her reasoning is their cover story for leaving Alexandria was Daryl and Rick were going to teach her to shoot, so she needed to not come back with a full clip. But think about it: Daryl & Rick didn’t fight the Wolves. They were outside the walls when it happened. Who took down the wolves almost single-handedly? Carol. So this was a foreshadow of what would take place in 6x02.

But that just gives this theory more credence. Everything in that scene meant something. Foreshadowed something. And nothing in 6x02 in any way explains the reason for this Bethyl side-by side theme. Okay, I think I’m done now. ;D

Incidentally, the side-by-side theme happens most often with a male and female who are love interests. Not always, but most often. That MAY indicate that Eugene and Rosita’s relationship will go the way of the comic books, now.

So these have been my many and sprawling thoughts about the trailer coda. And you thought the coda was meant to be short! ;D

[bethgreeneishopeunseen]

hi there, taylor! something katelyn nacon (enid) said was a little mysterious. "There will be a new relationship later on in the season..." then she talked about enid opening up some more. but, when i read that quote i thought of bethyl? it couldn't be carlxenid because they are already canon. what do you think?

http://comicbook.com/thewalkingdead/2017/09/27/enid-relationship-the-walking-dead-season-8-/

““Well there is, there will be a new relationship later on in the season,” Nacon said. “Enid kind of… she’s more open to helping everyone around her to do the right thing, of course. So it’s really cool to see Enid kind of branch out and be more open to people.””

Katelyn was actually referring to another relationship with Enid, one that probably isn’t romantic (because of Carnid). She could be referring to the Enid and Aaron scene in the trailer, and Ross Marquand elaborated that there is a bond brewing, but I’m not sure that’s what Katelyn is referring to. She mentioned that it would be later in the season, and the trailer came out over SDCC weekend. The trailer scene were probably from early to mid 8a. The midseason finale hadn’t been filmed yet, and the “later on in the season” detail makes me think that she was referring to the late episodes of 8a or the early episodes of 8b.

If Katelyn is referring to Beth, that would make sense because they would already be connected through Maggie. Maggie, the baby, Enid, Beth, and Daryl are going to make up the new Greene family, so the two young women would already be in the same familial sphere. Furthermore, Beth and Enid are close in age, so Beth could fill a big sister or aunt role for Enid. No matter what, I’m glad to hear that Enid will receive more screentime, character development, and develop more relationships on the show.

[doe-rose-q]

#TBT: Feeling quite nostalgic for Normily from 3 years ago when Norman Reedus and Emily Kinney were the king and queen cutiepies of San Diego Comic Con 2014. 💑 I begin my 3 day stint of working at SDCC later today… ushering for panels. And like I was able to last year, I’m gonna definitely have entry into Hall H for ‘The Walking Dead’ panel tomorrow! STOKED!!! 😁 I’m soooo excited to see the cast live in person and watch the world premiere of TWD’s Season 8 trailer! 😃 Hoping for some surprises as spectacular as Andy and Norman’s hilarious glitterbombing incident from last year’s panel! 💖 I wish with all my heart that it could be a “Normily Con” like it was back in 2014… during that beautiful “Summer of Bethyl.” 😔 But at least looking at these adorable photos of Emmy and Normy gives me happy Normily feels that outweigh the melancholy ones. But just by a smidgeon through… I miss these two so effing much!!! 😭

[gneebee]

Summer of Bethyl 2017 Comic Con Week SDCC 2017 The Walking Dead

I thought this Con was disappointing in terms of TWD. The cast mostly seemed to look exhausted and like they wished the con was over.

The trailer was the bright spot, we got to see Daryl return to his bad ass ways. I’m hoping that’s the way he will be portrayed in S8 - not so morose and so quiet. I’d like to see him return to his S2 / S3 self, where he was snarky, opinionated, hot-tempered and yep, bad ass.

I’m still hoping Beth is the blond guitar playing singer in the Kingdom :)

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Thoughts on the SDCC Trailer, Part 2

The many thoughts, musings, and ramblings sparked by the SDCC trailer continue.  😁

@galadrieljones​:

Yeah the passing of the knife seems to be a thing as well for Daryl. It happens with Beth, Leah, and Carol. I’m interpreting it a bit different just in terms of what it signals, but I think it’s still related to your thoughts. 

Daryl gives Beth his knife. She then, at some unseen juncture, finds her own knife, so she presumably gives Daryl his knife back at some point. Then later, Carol gives Daryl Beth’s knife. So Daryl and Beth each exchange knives one time. 

We don’t know how Carol got Beth’s knife. Perhaps it was in the mystery duffel bag. I get that Daryl wouldn’t want to go through the bag. Too much hurt. But Carol as the go-between is interesting. Because then in Diverged, Daryl will give Carol LEAH’s knife, an inversion of what happens in “Them.” He’ll then find he’s in need of her knife later, and it’s an inconvenience for him, as he has to go searching for a new one. 

I can’t remember tho—does Carol give Leah’s knife back to Daryl when she’s done? Or does she still have it? The exchange of knives seems to be quintessentially Bethyl, with Carol as a facilitator. To me, Rick’s gun is more to do with who is leading the charge. Who is the shepherd. But the knives I feel are different, symbolically, as they seem related to love, in the form of a tool. Can anyone remind me of the last time we definitively see Daryl carrying Beth’s knife?

@frangipanilove​

And we saw Michonne use a spoon as a weapon in 10x13, so spoon= arm = weapon = Beth’s knife = Rick’s Colt Python. Again, just pure speculation since the scene in the trailer could play out in a totally different way, but I’m exited to find out.

@galadrieljones:

Interesting. I wonder if the spoon, as a “weapon” or tool, calls back to Beth’s knife specifically, and is related to the Coda reset? Since the original spoon is the “D.C.” (al coda) signature. Carol also uses Leah’s knife as a tool to chop mushrooms for a soup, relating it to food, a la a spoon. Beth uses her knife for the first time in the kitchen when she stabs the walker in the head at Pine Vista.

Okay just some random thoughts: We’ve still not had a major development in Washington D.C. We’ve had a couple small things. But the CW seems to be in Ohio. The closest we got to a D.C. setting was in the D.C. underworld, on the metro. When they surface, they meet the Reapers, and Leah. VERY interesting, suggests the “inverted” coda, with the Underworld Beth. According to Negan’s directions Meridian then seems to be near Bethesda, north of D.C. 

My kid has been playing the old Zelda game “A Link to the Past” a lot lately. There are “dark” versions of all the light worlds. Just made me think of D.C. and how we haven’t really been there the way I thought we would have, per the foreshadowing. We’ve only been to the “dark” D.C., the underworld. But the CW obelisk feels reminiscent of the Washington monument. Idk. 

Will we go back to “above ground” D.C.? Will something develop there adjacent to what’s going down at the CW? Does it have something to do with Abraham’s map skewered by Michonne’s katana, aka the spin-off? Or am I just overthinking? In the 11c trailer, we see Daryl riding his motorcycle along a highway that runs adjacent to a big river. This interested me. I wonder where he is going? Someone above mentioned Terminus, and we still have that weird leak about how TWD was apparently booked to fill at the old Grady setting in Georgia. Then they’re all in Atlanta for Fandemic, including Emily. Is this all related? Like I said just throwing out some thoughts I had.

TWDMusicBoxMystery:

Carol tried to give Leah’s knife back to Daryl when he returned to Alexandria, but he told her to keep it. So, she probably still has it. I think the last time we saw Beth’s knife was 6x12. Before they raided the Savior’s satellite compound. But remember a couple of years ago at a panel, Norman confirmed that Daryl still has it.

@frangipanilove​:

He’s no longer wearing it when they attack the satellite station (Sirius reference). And iirc carol keeps Leah’s knife at the end of Diverged, we never hear about it again. I wrote a couple of posts about Leah’s knife and the parallels back when 10C aired. The knife (arm/weapon/spoon) symbolism ties into so many strands/families of symbolism, the red symbolism, the cross/X/+ symbolism… 

https://frangipanilove.tumblr.com/post/646026268267134977/beths-knife-vs-leahs-knife 

https://frangipanilove.tumblr.com/post/646491449640255488/beths-knife-vs-leahs-knife-update

@twdmusicboxmystery​:

Yeah, good point about DC and nothing huge happening there. It could be part of the Capitol/Revolution symbolism, but it would be cool if a bigger storyline happened there eventually. I can’t imagine Eugene homing in on that location in s5 was just some location picked at random that he would be wrong about. I think it will make more sense when it finally plays out.

@galadrieljones​:

Interesting. Now I’m remembering someone mentioning that him not bringing the knife is like him not wanting her to see what he’s about to do. Theoretically then, he never picks it up again, but he keeps it. The end of season 6 is when Daryl is still angry, emotional, and mourning, a la his reaction to Denise, getting Glenn killed, etc. After he gets out of the Sanctuary his feelings go away for a while. He becomes numb and in this, monstrous. 

It’s probably wishful thinking, but I wonder if they’ll show him holding her knife at some point soon, as I think he has emerged from his dark state. This also brings me back to that weird as hell scene in Find Me, when he’s got that knife on that tree stump, and he sets it out on top of a piece of plastic wrapping. It’s right after he gets his eye scar, as it’s starting him, then Dog comes. I don’t think that’s Beth’s knife as someone would have figured it out by now, but maybe it’s supposed to represent her? I remember feeling like he was going to maybe wrap the knife in the plastic and bury it? It’s all just too weird tho, that scene.

@frangipanilove​:

We did actually see the Washington monument in a reflection of the windows in 9x1, suggesting that they were close to it. Also, there is that shot of the Capitol building and the Washington monument in s11, as Eugene has his “serious as two copulating dogs” comment at the very moment we see the Capitol. It connects Beth’s DC spoon from still to the Sirius symbolism imo. We’ve also seen the Washington monument as a figurine in Fear, when Alicia’s used it as a weapon to stab a walker in the head.

Sorry, I mean Eugene’s comment from s5, as the approach DC on their way to ASZ

@galadrieljones​:

Totally. I just meant that we’ve never been back there, to the physical setting, for any significant developments. What TWDMusicBoxMystery said above makes sense, which is that Eugene choosing that location could come back at some point. Perhaps re: Dr. Ellis, who is still out there with the Bennetts. 

I’m wondering lately, too, if, despite all of these situational, or thematic replays of the Coda (4b-5a), as can be seen in “What We Become” and “New Best Friends” (there are more) might be more like “motifs,” or “themes,” to use music terminology. I mean to say that we’re probably close to playing through the final coda to the piece’s full thematic end by now, and I wonder if D.C. will come into play more literally, at that time. 

Morgan finds the map to D.C. right before he starts laughing hysterically for no discernible reason in the “Coda” coda. I always thought it was like this moment in which he breaks the fourth wall to reassure us that we will get back to this place again, and it will all be okay, or at the very least, the truth will be revealed in the FIN, or final coda. 

I’ve been trying for a while to understand the coda structure. To me, we haven’t had another “hard” reset since “Them.” Like I said above, even after Rick “dies,” its not really a hard reset, because WE KNOW he’s still alive, and so much of “what comes after” still revolves around him, and putting the pieces back together, and scrambling around frantically without a true leader. 

So it’s like the same old song striving to continue without its anchoring melody. But motifs of the coda keep playing out, quietly in the background, like little replays of what happens in 4b-5a, via situations and symbolism, and these build over time to a great crescendo and the final end. I’m not sure if this makes sense outside my head though, lol. Like I said I’m still trying to figure out how best to articulate my understanding of the coda structure.

(I also feel like this relates to the A/B thing, as we’re replaying through the A storyline, but the B storyline is still there, it’s just been hidden. Learning what the B storyline entails (ie: What happens to Beth) will theoretically fill out the missing pieces of the melody in the coda, which will help bring the final coda to its full thematic potential in the end.)

@frangipanilove:​

I get what you’re saying, I think it makes perfect sense if we somehow circle back to DC, it is after all a pretty significant place, the capital city, the political and administrative center of the pre-apocalyptic USA. I’m glad you brought up the map Morgan finds, because imo both the map and Beth’s DC spoon are objects that speaks of navigation. They both lead our thoughts to DC.

We actually see the map again in the promo poster for 11 c, where the map symbolism is married with the weapon symbolism (Michonne’s katana), and that’s one of the things that makes me sense that the scene with Daryl looking at Rick’s pistol could be symbolically tied to the scene where Beth looks at the DC spoon.

As far as a reset goes, I guess I feel that the juxtaposition of Morgan’s “it’s the fever that kills” with Alicia’s “isn’t the fever supposed to kill the infection” is what marks the great reset. Sure, we haven’t seen much of it yet, because we haven’t had new episodes yet, but imo that episode marks the reset. The fever no longer kills necessarily. Alicia is the first character who’s Ben bitten, developed fever but still survives. In my interpretation that’s the reset. The end is the beginning. A paradigm shift.

@wdway​:

Guy's I just want to remind y'all of my speculation on the DC spoon. That the image of the capital with the words, Washington D.C could be seen as a coda for return to the man George Washington the leader of the American Revolution.

George Washington=Rick. Rick= CMR Revolution. I wrote about two wars. The first smaller one being the Commonwealth with the larger one being CRM.

TWD, tptb gave us the image of the crossing of the Delaware substituting Rick as George Washington. Looks like a huge clue to me.

@frangipanilove​:

Yes excellent point Ann. I remember you we’re talking about this recently. I’m not very knowledgeable about this part of history so I totally trust you on this one.

@galadrieljones:

Definitely. I think Rick is waiting in “the new world,” to lead the revolution.

@wdway:

I circled what looks like the Washington Monument on the arm of the spoon.

@galadrieljones​:

Yes I totally agree about the cure thing. I think that the show will end, like it will have a clear cut thematic end, and it will somehow open the door to the new “beginning,” or what I’d call the next chapter. I don’t think the story will experience a hard reset so much as end and then begin again. The end is the beginning. I think TWD must meet it’s final coda and end independently, and “the beginning” will pick up elsewhere in TWDU, aka the Richonne spin-off. Because in a D.C Al Coda you really are only resetting one time (ie: going back to the beginning) and then when you get back to the D.C., you skip the original d.c. al coda to the coda sign and play from there to the end.

So assuming the D.C. al coda begins after the prison , then we’d see the final coda begin after the fall of another great empire—probably Alexandria.

Aka now.

Brings me back to the lyrics for Up the Wolves, which uses the founding of a great empire as it’s central metaphor: “Our mother has been absent ever since we founded Rome, but there’s gonna be a party when the wolf comes home.” Beth has been gone ever since they founded Alexandria.

@frangipanilove​:

About that scene from FM, I always interpreted the blank piece of paper/plastic as a blank map. Idk if I have any solid evidence to support that interpretation, but it was just something about it. We also saw Leah and Daryl look at the eclipse through possibly the same piece of paper/plastic, and it’s just something about it that screams “lost”, or “off the charts” about that scene and really the entire episode, and particularly the eclipse scene. 

It’s like every little detail screams that they’re not in “the world” they’re in “the underworld”, where there’s no direction, no real means of navigating. It’s that feeling of Leah as “Huldra”, luring him away from the realm of the living, towards her death realm. He has a map, but it’s blank. He’s lost, confused. 

Again, I can’t prove it but I feel like the piece of paper/plastic was a map, only it was blank, indicating how lost Daryl was, how “blind” he was. He’s literally watching the sun get eclipsed through the blank map, there’s no light, he’s blind and lost, and the devil has her claws in him. 

But if we return to Beth’s DC spoon, I feel like in a way it’s a clue about “navigation” like it’s directions to bring our minds to DC, a sort of a “map”. And that’s also what the North Star symbolism is about. The big and Little Dipper, or “spoons” in a way. Ladles. 

This is why the promo poster of the katana through the DC map exited me. It’s the arm/knife/pistol/weapon symbolism married with the navigation/spoon/North Star symbolism, plus we already saw Michonne use a spoon as a weapon against Virgil, and we saw near the box (trunk) buried under the floorboards in Leah’s cabin, that Eagle Eye Ann brilliantly pointed out. So much to be exited about. But yeah, I can never prove that the piece of paper/plastic was a blank map. But I like to interpret it as that.

And sure, totally agree. And I also think Beth could already be a part of the “reset” or the new paradigm because she was potentially involved in research revolving around a cure/treatment/vaccine/immunity at Grady. 

Also, this could explain the arm symbolism similarities between Alicia and Beth. Alicia, who for as of yet unknown reasons “beat” the fever, thus signaling the “end” of the old paradigm and walked off into the sunset. She was bit in the arm, amputated it, but too late, according to herself. She developed the fever. 

And then there’s Beth, the Sirius character, who hid a pair of scissors (weapons/arms) in her cast (around her arm), struck Dawn in a rather unfortunate way, and went “away” for a while, like an inverted Sirius/Dog Star, that “went away” before Dawn. The GA believes she’s dead, Alicia should have been dead. But they’re both alive. 

Of course the treatment/experimentation Beth was subjected to at Grady is just speculation for now, we can’t say anything definitive about it either way. But there could potentially be similar reasons for Alicia’s survival (representing the paradigm shift) and Beth’s survival. 

Maybe the paradigm was already shifting as early as season 4, but the shift happened off-camera, so we’ll only learn about it after Alicia’s paradigm shift. And, we know of course that the walkers we saw in s1 resembled the variant walkers we’re learning about now. It was explained as a creative choice, but I’m sure it will be referred to when we start learning more about the fast, intelligent walkers. It’s still a reference to the beginning though, will be interesting to see how much they elaborate on the s1 walkers in the future episodes.

@galadrieljones​:

We haven't really talked about the "advanced" walkers yet but I'm with you, really looking forward to learning more about the "intelligent" walkers, and where they maybe have been all these years, and what's now bringing them back. The "doorknob" trope in particular, which I think Aaron mentions having "heard" about before in the trailer (ie: walkers that can turn doorknobs") obviously brings us back to Morgan, too, in "Days Gone By," re: his zombie wife, who seemingly not only is still drawn back to the place where she once lived but also has the intelligence to walk up to the door and turn the doorknob. 

Ofc Morgan cannot bring himself to kill her later in the episode, when we get his POV through the crosshairs (aka the coda sign, as it is first associated with Morgan and will come back into play in 5.. Here's an old visual aid I made for this lol. It really intrigues me, seems like one of those "seeds" Gimple harvested and grew into something bigger once he took over.

@frangipanilove:

Yeah, that’s something I’m curious about as well. It was initially explained as a creative choice, but now when the story is taking the direction it’s taking, it certainly fits with the shows history. Will be super interesting to see how they circle back to it. Surely they must.

@galadrieljones​:

When I first started watching TWD it was mainly because of Frank Darabont. Darabont is really good at finding the psychological root of horror tropes, which is why he’s always been great when adapting Stephen King to the screen. It’s never just “zombies,” it’s something rotten that inside of us, some fear, loss, deep dark secret, or inadequacy, manifesting. It makes sense to me that Darabont’s zombies are more “human,” because they represent human fears, and the line between human and zombie is not always as obvious as it seems. I think it’s cool now that tptb are taking this choice and growing it into a larger part of the story.

(Like to me the most terrifying part of “Days Gone By” is the scene when Morgan’s wife is turning that doorknob. The fear doesn’t live in the possibility she can get inside, but in the human toll—Dwayne crying out for the mother who is “there,” but who can’t love him back anymore, because that part of her is gone. That was the scene that convinced me the show was good, more than just a “zombie” show, and convinced me to keep watching.)

@wdway​:

I just realized that tptb as been showing us a smart walker since s9.

I believe this other has signs of being experiment on.

I've believed that these walker from Slabtown were use as part of there treatment experiments.

@galadrieljones​:

That’s a great observation! I feel like I remember we discussed it vaguely when the new intro was revealed, I can’t remember if it was in here or if it was in the general fandom, but you’re absolutely right, those new walkers in the intro had something about them that seemed different. That’s typical, everything is always foreshadowed in some way. Season 9, huh!

@frangipanilove:

Yeah, I agree. I desperately hope that we learn more about what happened in and around Grady. It was such a random storyline, it would’ve been absolutely perfect as background for a future CRM storyline.

I agree, Darabont’s walkers were super intense. I always thought it was a weird choice to alter their behavior so significantly.

@galadrieljones​:

Interesting!! I think that tptb used the Whisperers, too, as a way of introducing the “idea” of evolving walkers.

TWDMusicboxmystery: That was most of our direct discussion about the trailer. Hope you enjoyed it. 

I’ll have more discussions, such as about the press release panel they did, and also about something new I discovered just a few days ago (not Comicon related) that makes me super excited. Stay tuned!

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Season 9 Posts

(Please Ignore: Just updating my index during the hiatus. 😉)

Pre S9 Evidence:

It’s All Connected and the Plan is On Track 01/27/2018

Beth Greene was Always Gimple’s Sheriff 01/23/2018

Foreshadowing of S8/S9 in 5x10 05/12/2018

Rick/Beth Parallels Master Post 05/25/2018

News about AL and LC and What it Means for TD 06/02/2018

Random Possibilities for AL’s Exit in S9 (7x12 Foreshadowing) 06/07/2018

Possible Ties Between Alone and AL’s Departure 06/21/2018

Thoughts (and Possible Clues) About Beth and Alpha 06/27/2018

Thoughts on AMC’s Character-Driven Marathons 06/24/2018

Follow-Up Thoughts on the Dixon Brother’s Marathon 06/26/2018

Ties Between S1/S2 and S9/S9 07/03/2018

Ties Between Winslow and S9 07/06/2018

St. Patrick, Luck, Clovers and S9 07/17/2018

Analysis of SDCC S9 Trailer 07/23/2018

Ties Between 4x06/4x07 and S9 07/28/2018

S9 Preview Show--Yea! 08/06/2018

5 Things That Should Make You Excited for S9 08/15/2018

Details from the SDCC Trailer: Cigarette Scenes in TWD 08/30/2018

Noah - More a Proxy to Beth than We Thought/Ties to S9 09/01/2018

Bethyl “Claimed” Trading Card 09/20/2018

Strawberry Theory Master Post 10/03/2018

Analysis of New Opening Credits for S9 10/05/2018

Thoughts on S9 Character Returns 10/12/2018

Coming Fulfillment of Daryl’s Last Man Standing Status 10/24/2018

9x01: A New Beginning

9x01: A New Beginning - Analysis 10/08/2018

9x01: Details 10/09/2018

9x01: Lyric Analysis: The Last Rose of Summer 10/11/2018

Henry’s Chutes and Ladders Game: 10/20/2018

Orange Color/Banners in D.C. 02/01/2019

9x02: The Bridge

9x02: First Thoughts 10/15/2018

9x02: Details 10/16/2018

Walker Herd Names and What They Foreshadow 10/18/2018

Ann/Jadis and FG as Bethyl Proxies 10/25/2018

9x03: Warning Signs

9x03: First Thoughts 10/22/2018

9x03: Details 10/23/2018

9x04: The Obliged

9x04: First Thoughts/Themes 10/24/2018

Beth in 9x05 Trailer: Deep Breaths Everyone 10/30/2018

9x04: Details 10/31/2018

9x04: TTD 11/02/2018

9x05: What Comes After

9x05: Rick’s Fate 11/04/2018

9x05: TD Clues - So Many! 11/06/2018

Thoughts on Daryl in 9x05 11/08/2018

Understanding the “After” Episodes and how Carl’s Death will Lead to Beth 11/09/2018

Daryl’s Arc Over the Seasons and Where He Is Now (S9) 11/10/2018

The Wizard of Oz (TWOO) Updated 12/04/2018

TD Evidence; Or Proof Credits-Girl is Beth 12/28/2018

Weirdness of the Blood on Beth’s Arm 03/17/2023

9x06:

9x06: First Thoughts 11/12/2018

9x06: Details - A Lot of Them 11/13/2018

Bird Songs and References 11/15/2018

Black/White Dogs and How Alone Might Foreshadow the Whisperers 11/17/2018

9x07: Stradivarius

9x07: First Thoughts 11/19/2018

9x07: Details 11/20/2018

Predictions, Part 1: Beth in MSF? 11/21/2018

Michael Cudlitz on Daryl and Carol’s Non-Romance 11/22/2018

Predictions, Part 2: Other Possibilities This Season 11/23/2018

Daryl’s Relationships With Those He Searches For 11/28/2018

9x08: Evolution

9x08: First Thoughts 11/25/2018

9x08: Details 11/27/2018

What the Grandfather Clock from 7x07 Foreshadowed (Jesus’ Death) 01/08/2019

9x09:

9x09: Analysis 02/11/2019

9x10: Omega

9x10: First Thoughts 02/17/2019

9x10: Details 02/19/2019

9x10: Musical References and Ties to Beth 02/21/2019

9x11: Bounty

9x11: First Thoughts 02/25/2019

9x11: Details 02/26/2019

9x11: Details Part 2 + My Wacky Carzekiel Theory 02/27/2019

Music From Bounty and The Red Machete 03/08/2019

9x12: Guardians

9x12: First Thoughts 03/03/2019

9x12: Details 03/06/2019

9x13: Chokepoint

9x13: First Thoughts

9x13: Details 03/12/2019

9x13: TTD Clues 03/13/2019

9x14: Scars

9x14: Parallels and Arcs 03/18/2019

9x14: Details and an Epiphany 03/19/2019

9x15: The Calm Before

9x15: First Thoughts 03/24/2019

9x15: Details 03/26/2019

9x16: The Storm

9x16: First Thoughts 03/31/2019

9x16: TD Clues - Just Try to Ignore These! 04/02/2019

9x16: Details 04/04/2019

How Carzekiel Breakup is a Good Thing for TD 04/03/2019

Adam References in S9/Point to S10 04/13/2019

Daryl Staring At Beth’s Picture Ask 03/22/2023

Epic Way Daryl Looks at Beth’s Painting 03/23/2023

S9 Music:

Lyric Analysis: Last Rose of Summer 10/11/2018

Bird Songs and References 11/15/2018

9x10: Musical References and Ties to Beth 02/21/2019

Music From Bounty and The Red Machete 03/08/2019

Song Analysis: April Skies 07/16/2019

Misc:

AK’s Script Notes and Why I Love Them 11/16/2018 

The Wizard of Oz (TWOO) Updated 12/04/2018

Parallels Between S1/S2 and S8/S9 12/06/2018

What TD Has Been Correct About 12/08/2018

TD Evidence; Or Proof Credits-Girl is Beth 12/28/2018

Predictions: Negan and Beth 01/11/2019

How Henry Spoilers Define Daryl’s Arc 01/15/2019

9b Trailer Analysis 01/28/2019

Beth/Michonne Theory 01/30/2019

Orange Color/Banners in D.C. 02/01/2019

8 = Year Time Jump 02/09/2019

Alpha, Omega, Carol & Beth: It’s All Coming Together 03/21/2019

Predictions for the Finale. Sort of. 03/27/2019

Wizard of Oz Dream Sequence (Misiano-Genovese) 04/03/2019

How Carzekiel Breakup is a Good Thing for TD 04/03/2019

Red/Green Theory Revamped 04/09/2019

Adam References in S9/Point to S10 04/13/2019

Mailbag Fan Questions 04/15/2019

Richard III Template 04/18/2019

Tara and the Yoyo Symbol 04/30/2019

Song Analysis: April Skies 07/16/2019

Foreshadows of S9 in Ricks 5x16 Speech 07/24/2019

Season 9 TTD:

9x04: TTD 11/02/2018 

9x13: TTD Clues 03/13/2019

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Outside the Show

Interviews, Promos, Excitement for the Show’s Return, Stuff involving the Actors (vs. the Characters) etc.

Personal Pics:

Bracelet With Wing Charm 03/12/2017

Commemorative Account Stickers from Doeroseq 

New Bethyl Phone Case 02/21/2023

Feelings About TWD:

What Makes You Happy/TWD 01/17/2017

Mashups:

Bethyl Draws Near, I Can Feel It 01/01/2016

Aladdin - Whenever Daryl Comes on Screen 01/19/2016

Family Guy/Walker Bugging Daryl 01/27/2016

Hunger Games/Watching S5 First Time 02/12/2016

Winona Ryder/Friends/Never Happened 02/17/2016

Other Fandoms Be Like/Vs TWD 02/23/2016

Toy Story: Symbolism Everywhere 04/13/2016

Beth/Mulan - This One’s Late 05/05/2016

Daryl/Hunger Games/I Volunteer as Tribute 05/10/2016

Despicable Me/Waiting for S7 07/16/2016

Aladdin - Rick em Wrack em Rock em Rake...(Gif) 09/13/2016

Four Weeks Baby, Four Weeks 09/25/2016

Norman:

Reading is Sexy 01/14/2016

Tongue War 01/15/2016

Call Me/Girls Running 01/21/2016

When NR Talks to TD in His Interviews 01/24/2016

I Want YOU to Watch TWD 02/01/2015

Norman no Shirt/No Story Line 02/10/2016

Rickyl/Norman/Andy BFF 02/06/2016

Norman Face - Still 15 Weeks Until TWD 06/24/2016

Sweet-Hearted Norman 06/07/2016

Song Lyrics He Tweeted/Bethyl 06/28/2016

Story Line vs. Shirtless Norman 07/11/2016

Old Soul 07/14/2016

Norman Reedus Emoji

Happy Birthday Norman 01/06/2017

Norman Kissing Madison 01/15/2017

Norman/Slobbery Heart 02/28/2017

NR/Apple Crate Quote/Pic 06/23/2015

What the Hell? Where’s Beth? 08/01/2018

When You Realize TWD Returns in a Month 09/07/2018

Bethyl Strategy Since S5 (”Uhhh...”) 10/06/2018

Norman Reedus Emoji (Not Mine)

Norman Photo Purple Filter (Not Mine)

Norman Eating Ice Cream (Photo, Not Mine) 05/02/2019

Clogging Up Your Feed With Daryl Pics/Your Welcome 06/10/2019

Watching the SDCC Trailer Like... (Triple 9) 07/20/2019

Because Reedus, That’s Why/Blue Eyes (Not Mine) 09/02/2020

Random/Non-TWD Related When You Realize/That Moment When...

Daryl - S5 Scuzz 07/02/2015

Hate on TWD/Beth/Scissors 07/03/2015

Michonne Overthinking 07/06/2015

Daryl - 6 mos to S6 07/10/215

Tyreese to Writers after Coda 07/2015

When Crazy/TWD/Daryl/Aaron 07/28/2015

Still 9 Weeks to TWD/Norman Face 12/07/2015

Meet other TDers/Bethylers 12/11/2015

RIP Alan Rickman 01/14/2016

When Spoilers Support Our Theories Week After Week 03/12/2017

Andy/Umbrella When Shia Shows Up 10/16/2017

When Someone Hates on TWD (Daryl - Cut Tongue Out) 04/09/2018

When You Realize No More TWD Until October 04/16/2018

When You Realize TWD Returns in a Month 09/07/2018

When Someone Says Beth Couldn’t Have Survived (Daryl Facepalm) 10/04/2018

When Someone Hates on Daryl (Judith Stink Eye) 11/12/2018

Watching the SDCC Trailer Like... (Triple 9) 07/20/2019

Anticipating Return:

October is Finally Here! (Daryl Dance) 10/01/2015

Returns in a Week (Eugene Happy) 10/04/2015

Ring/7 Days Gif 10/04/2015

On this Week Yea! 4 Character Jump 10/10/2015

TWD Returns This Week/Toddler in Surf 02/13/2016

TWD is on Today/Dog Jump 02/21/2016

Who’s Excited? (Daryl/Gun/6x11) 02/21/2016

SDCC Trailer in 1 Week! (Daryl Dance) 0715/2016

Dale Face - When Someone Isn’t as Excited as I am 08/09/2016

Daryl Face - HOW Long Until TWD Returns? 08/26/2016

Frog Floating 09/17/2016

TD Waiting For Beth to Appear Like 09/20/2016

Four Weeks Baby, Four Weeks 09/25/2016

Rick/Tear TWD Not Return for 6 Mos 04/03/2017

Rick/Negan What Do You Mean October?!? 04/07/2017

Daryl Angry Face TWD Not Return Until Oct 04/30/2017

TWD Return in June 05/02/2017

When You Realize No More TWD Until October 04/16/2018

http://twdmusicboxmystery.tumblr.com/post/177843188754

When You Realize TWD Doesn’t Return Until Feb (Aaron) 11/26/2018

Watching the SDCC Trailer Like... (Triple 9) 07/20/2019

When You Start Seeing Material for 10b 01/27/2020

When Other People Aren’t Excited for TWD’s Return 01/28/2020

New to the Fandom?:

Come to the Dark Side. We Have a Daryl 09/05/2016

Hotel California Lyrics 09/07/2016

We Hope You Look Forward to Soul Crushing Tragedy 09/08/2016

Random Cast/Writers:

Holding Andy 02/15/2016

Rickyl/Norman/Andy BFF 02/06/2016

Nicotero, Norman, Cudlitz 02/16/2016

6x09: Daryl/Denise Shot 02/17/2016

Gimple: Audience Always Right 04/01/2017

Gimple/EK/Acoustic/Music 10/27/2017

Happy Birthday to Emily 08/15/2018

Anti-Hater:

The Dowager Countess Disapproves 06/23/2015

A Word About Haters 06/28/2015

Dare to be Epic 01/25/2016

Me to Skeptics and Haters (Baby) 01/27/2016

Ecard: I Hate it When You’re Wrong 03/14/2016

Spoilers

When Spoilers Support Our Theories Week After Week 03/12/2017

Greg Nicotero Suspicious Answer on Grady Question 06/25/2020

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Theories>Outside the Show>Promos

Prior to or During S5:

Throwback Theories During 5a 08/23/2015

5b Promos Part 1 09/05/2015

5b Promos Part 2 09/05/2015

Remember Promo in 5b 09/05/2015

S5 Marathon - Analysis Coming Soon 08/08/2016

Bethyl Promo During S5 Marathon! 08/09/2016

Prior to or During S6:

What Was THIS About? 06/11/2015

Forecasting 6x01 - Cudlitz Promo Video 07/07/2015

Dissecting SDCC Season 6 trailer 07/11/2015 (Part 1)

Dissecting SDCC S6 Trailer Part 2 07/11/2015

Dissecting SDCC S6 Trailer Part 3 07/11/2015

More Theories From the S6 Trailer 07/20/2015

Both Sides of the Truth 08/14/2015

Packages from Woodbury 08/15/2015

Daryl as a Prisoner 08/16/2015 

Thoughts on S6 Premiere Show 08/24/2015

Promo Posters for S6 09/14/2015

Sasha’s Promo Poster for S6 09/18/2015

Promo Song for S6/NR Interview 09/26/2015

Publicity Pics for S6 09/28/2015

Final Analysis of Walker Posters 10/09/2015

6x01: What Ep 1 Reveals About the Trailer 10/18/2015

6x06: Dissecting the Promo 11/06/2015

6x08: EK Singing in the Promo 11/28/2015

Bat Promo 12/31/2015 

Random Thoughts About 6x09 Promo 01/11/2016 

6b Promo Pics 01/14/2016

Beth is in the Promo Pics (Part 1) 01/20/2016

More on Beth Being in the 6b Promo Pics 01/21/2016

Beth in Promo Pics - Ultimate Proof 01/22/2016

6b Promo Pics: Convo About Morgan on a Horse 01/30/2016

Deceased characters Pic 02/12/2016 

Quick Question (Promos and Lighting) 02/04/2016

More Weird Promos 02/10/2016

Red Promo 02/10/2016

S6 Promo Posters Update 08/17/2017

Before During S7:

Analysis of S7 Trailer 07/23/2016 

TD Stuff in the S7 Preview Show 08/15/2016

TD Images in S7 Promo Pics 09/10/2016

Thoughts on the S7 Sneak Peak 10/09/2016

The Journey So Far Recap Analysis 10/17/2016

Why the 7b Promo Pics are Giving me TD Tingles 01/09/2017

Iguana/Snake Promo during Marathon 02/11/2017

Before or During S8:

What the Carzekiel Promo Can Tell Us About the Bethyl Promos 04/08/2017 

Dissecting the S8 Trailer 07/21/2017

What Rick’s Old man Coda MIGHT Be About 07/24/2017

Analysis of S8 Premiere Show 09/11/2017

Emily in Emmy Mag, Issue 8! 09/18/2017

Best Promos to Happen for TD in a Long Time 09/20/2017

Season 8 EW Photo Shoot 09/23/2017

Major Easter Eggs in the “100 Secrets” Article 09/29/2017

Recent Things Giving Me TD Tingles 10/09/2017

Suspicious Pre-S8 Promos 10/14/2017

Outside the Show Interviews and Magazine Covers 12/18/2017

Red Machete Vids 12/15/2017

Magazine Ties Between Coda and S8 03/23/2018

Before S9:

Analysis of SDCC S9 Trailer 07/23/2018

Codas for SDCC Trailers: Undeniable Patterns 07/25/2018

S9 Preview Show--Yea! 08/06/2018

Details from the SDCC Trailer: Cigarette Scenes in TWD 08/30/2018

S10:

A Landslide of Promotion for Emily/Beth 11/19/2019

More Suspicious Articles About Beth 01/06/2020

Articles About Coming Limited Series 01/15/2020

Insights From the Talk Dead To Me Podcast 9/14/2020

Emily Tweeting About Burning Forests and Gnomes 9/17/20

Random Bits and Pieces 09/18/2020

Articles and Titles (Daryl’s Love Life and Jasper) 11/08/2020

More IG Story/Music and Lyrics Clues 12/10/2020

Emily’s Audition Looking Like Beth 01/07/2021

Daryl’s Scar Looking Like a Coda 01/07/2021

Timeline for 6-Year Time Jump 01/07/2021

More Suspicious Instastories 1/10/2021

Norman on Emily’s Podcast 01/14/2021

S10 Bonus Episodes Trailer 01/22/2021

2023:

Misleading Promo Articles (i.e. Misleading Donnie Hints) 02/19/2023

[twdmusicboxmystery]

What Rick’s Old Man Coda MIGHT Be About

Okay, so here’s the thing. One question I got a lot of after my Dissecting the Season 8 Trailer post was what I actually think Rick’s coda portends in the show. I said I didn’t think it was literal and that it foreshadowed Beth’s arc in some way, but then what do I actually think will happen with it in the show?

I’m happy to tell you all where my head’s at, but please understand this is complete and somewhat wild conjecture that could be proven wrong in episode 1. As long as well understand that, I’ll share what me and some of my fellow theorists have discussed the past few days.

So let me talk about three random possibilities first. Then I’ll tell you how I think this is a setup for the whole rest of the series (or, as Gimple recently said, at least the next hundred episodes.)

1. We have the obvious. That this is some kind of symbol or bait and switch for Beth. We have someone waking up in the hospital a live, with yellow flowers, after an obvious passage of time. Very obvious parallels there. 

@thegloriouscollectorlady and I even talked about how interesting it would be if this wasn’t Rick’s dream at all, but Beth’s. Like a comma dream or something. I’m actually leaning less toward that than it being Rick’s but it’s an interesting possibility.

And let’s not forget that the other codas all seem to have something to do with Beth. She WAS the coda to S5 trailer. (We saw her being beaten by Dawn in Slabtown.) For S6, it was Daryl in the woods in 6x06, which was replete with Beth symbolism. In S7 it was Tara running away from Oceanside. Obvious stuff there. The odd one out is the S4 trailer coda which was Daryl and Michonne hearing the Terminus broadcast. As things stand right now, that very specifically does NOT have to do with Beth, as she was never at Terminus. But at the same time, anyone who cares to look can see the symbolism that she’ll be there eventually. The flowers by Rick’s bed in his old man coda were yellow, after all. 

2. Let’s remember that in 7x01, they had something very similar to this. After Glenn and Abraham die, as they drive away in the RV, Rick has this vision/dream of them all having a picnic together. As many of the characters at that table are now dead, it’s obviously not something that will happen literally on the show. (Unless they do some kind LOST/everyone-goes-to-heaven thing in the last episode or something.) But my point is that the lighting, the brightness, the softness of the picture are all very similar to Rick’s old man coda. So I get that this has a literal place in the comic books. Not discounting that. But based on precedent in the show, I don’t think we should be assuming this will happen in a literal sense.

(And also, the picnic scene happened in 7x01. This is also a premiere. Just saying.)

3. @wdway pointed out something awesome! (Of course she did. She’s a genius that way.) Rick’s cane. She reminded me of another cane we saw that I’d completely forgotten about. Check this out:

Obviously not the same, but Gimple took the reigns in 4x01. The first thing we see is Karen killing walkers with a cane. I should probably give this it’s own post. I’ll try and be brief here, but I’ve discussed before how Karen and Ty are an early iteration of Bethyl. They’re a couple, the writers went out of their way to tell us they never slept together. The woman (Beth) died and the man (Daryl) lost her, which informed his emotions for a lot of his arc afterward. They were part of the Bethyl/Side-by-Side arc we’ve seen a bunch of times.

And Karen, when she died, had a bracelet on that said Rock, Paper, Scissors. In the past, the only thing we could say for sure is Beth + Scissors. I still don’t know about the paper part, but in S7 we had Rick’s Rock in the Road story, which had major Beth callbacks. (No, still haven’t put together an edit for that; so many edits, so little time.) So I think we can link two of these three things on Karen’s bracelet to Beth. And I’m sure the paper will make sense at some point. Plus there’s three of them.

So my point is that we can connect these two canes. And the one in 4x01 is definitely a Beth proxy/symbol of Beth. I have more to say about this, but I’ll come back to it.

So first let me point out a few other random facts that go into this. A Nonny told me last week about an interview Gimple gave that said episode 100 (8x01) would be a set up for the next hundred episodes. Read the interview HERE.

So as far as Rick’s old man coda is concerned, if they’re setting up for the next hundred episodes in ep 1, why would they do a two-year time jump a handful of episodes later? Just doesn’t make tons of sense.

Also, where Karen’s cane is concerned? It just makes sense that we saw the cane when Gimple took over in 4x01, and that we’d see it again as we role from the first 100 episodes into the second.

The other thing that feeds into this line of thought has to do with the 100 episode poster they hung at SDCC. Here it is if you haven’t seen it:

As you can see, all of the characters are on it, even the deceased ones. Yes Beth is there on the left. We could talk about how she’s right in front of the hospital doors Rick saw when he woke up in the hospital in 1x01 (you know the part Rick’s old man coda seems to be recreating), or the fact that the “don’t dead” part is directly over her head, but we won’t. ;D

The thing that caught my eye is the dark vs light coloring. It almost suggests that the future is quite dark for TF. Now, it may be so, but I have a hunch that this may have more to do with Rick specifically, especially as he’s the one featured so prominently on the poster.

So, if you haven’t read it yet, go take a look at THIS POST. I wrote it right after the S6 finale. It’s about the whole Dawn/Hanson back story at Grady. They went out of their way to tell us about how Hanson used to be in charge and cracked. Dawn killed him and took over. As with all things Grady, it turned out to be quite a waste of air time. The only reason for back story like this is so that they can show the characters overcoming it. The obvious candidate would be Dawn. But of course she dies four episodes later without overcoming much of anything.

The more-obvious candidate would be Beth. Learning from what Dawn did wrong. But she apparently died in the same episode.

So assuming that Beth DIDN’T die and Grady WASN’T a waste, that means this back story should come into play at some point.

One (of many) reasons I was so sure she’d show up in 7 was because of this. I really think it points to Rick cracking up at some point and Beth having to step in and help him. I don’t think she’ll kill him, as Dawn did Hanson, but this is why she’ll be the “new sheriff in town.”

I think of these things work together. The poster suggests dark days ahead for Rick and his leadership. But the coda also suggests he’ll make it. Eventually.  While I do think the coda will be a dream or vision sequence, as the picnic scene was in 7x01, I also think it could be a foreshadow for how things will be later, after AOW. So in that way it DOES follow the comic books. But if Gimple says this is setting up for the next hundred episodes, this old man Rick thing really could be another 100 episodes away. Maybe not that long, but you never know. As slow as they move in the show, I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility. And if Gimple has through season 15 planned, as he says he does, then he really could foreshadow that far ahead.

Because of that, and the 7x01 picnic sequence, I think it’s very possible we’ll see this coda part in episode 100, but that doesn’t mean it will actually happen in that episode, if that makes sense. Historically the trailer codas came from episode 4 (S4 and S5 trailer) and episode 6 (S6 and S7 trailer) so you never know.

And look, no matter what it ends up being, it’s obviously a mirror for episode 1. Really no denying that. And that makes sense for episode 100, but it also suggests something big is happening. Something big is changing. If it was just a continuation of what’s come before, I don’t see them doing this old man coda, mirroring episode 1. And something that big? It’s just got to be Beth. *fingers crossed*

P.S. Let’s also not forget that the logo is no longer decomposing, but has turned white. It suggests new beginnings, a new day, a clean slate. I would also argue that it suggests resurrection. The “death” is gone, replaced by white. Just saying. ;D

Oh, one more thing. (Sorry, adding this on bc I promised someone yesterday I’d talk about it.) It looks in the trailer like Rick might be a prisoner to Jadis and the Scavengers. If that’s so, I can’t help but go back to the Narnia template. It’s always in the back of my head because Jadis is so NOT a random name to choose.

This could mean that Rick = Edmund, who was taken in by the White Witch (named Jadis). We already saw him believe her and ally with her, which he shouldn’t have done and it came back to bite him in the butt. But even after the initial happening, Edmund has some dark days where he deals with doubt. The same may be true of Rick. And who helps Edmund through it? Aslan. The character who 100% dies in the second Chronicle and is then resurrected. He then shows up in the middle of a war and helps take out the big baddie. Just saying. ;D

Thoughts?

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Regarding your analysis of The Well, I noticed on recent rewatch that the music from the old man Rick coda at the end of the SDCC trailer plays when Morgan and Ezekiel are discussing training Ben with a staff and that Ben will be an important member of Ezekiel's court one day. The exact same misic. Do you think that's significant!? There's no way that's an accident?! I don't think that same exact music ever plays again but correct me if I'm wrong. What's your analysis?

Yes and no, but mostly yes, lol. 

I haven’t compared the different musical selections in detail, so I’m not sure how accurate this will be. But I think this same music has been used multiple times. If I’m wrong and it’s not always the same music, then music very similar has been used multiple times.

So in that way, we might not be able to point to it as significant if it’s used often in the show. 

But. 

The other times I’m thinking of are things we’ve always linked to Beth and TD. Similar soft, soothing music is often played when Beth’s sunlight is shining down on various characters. The two that come to mind are on Morgan in 6x04 when he walks into a green meadow just before meeting Eastman, and also on Carnid in 6x10 when they’re outside the walls together. 

It’s hard to say what links all these scenes. I’ve thought about it maybe being that the characters have found or are about to find peace/healing. With Carnid, because the relationship will heal them. *coughs Bethyl* With Morgan, Eastman helps him heal and find peace. With Morgan and Ben, I really think by teaching Ben, Morgan began to think of him as a son, which is why he descended so swiftly back into darkness when Ben died. 

But I’m with you, Nonny. I feel like whatever these past instances of this music are pointing to, the fact that we hear it in the S8 trailer might show that this foreshadowing is about to be fulfilled in S8. And if we’re right, that’s awesome for TD. 😉

I hope that all made sense. 😂

And again, I’m not even sure these are all the EXACT same music, but if they’re not, they’re very similar.

Thanks so much for pointing this out. Xoxo! 😘